In Conversation with: Dawn Butler MP

On the other side of my screen is Halima Jibril, founder and creator of Ashamed Magazine, as well as Dawn Butler, Labour MP, first elected African-Caribbean female government minister in the UK and former Shadow Secretary of State for Women and Equalities. In an age of social distancing, face to face interviews are no longer a possible luxury, so instead, before each of us is a Zoom screen allowing us to begin a conversation navigating discourses from politics, Gil Scott Heron and BLM, to burnout, disenchantment and Labi Siffre.

This interview was set up by Black Britain and Beyond, a platform created to bring together Black Britons of all ages and experiences to engage in and critically assess the significance of their unique cultures, heritages and identities.

Halima: How do you exist/navigate such white spaces? Spaces that appear extremely unwelcoming?

Dawn B: So, there’s a couple of tools that I use at my disposal. One of them being, sometimes, I will basically stand in the doorway of a room and allow myself to take it all in, so that no matter what anybody says to me in that room, I've already owned it. And so, by taking in the room in this way and maintaining a sense of control, I feel that I also give the room a chance to take me in as well.

So often, I’ve walked into a room and people don’t expect me to be the MP, so they look behind me for the person who's going to be the MP. They don't expect me to be Black, they don't expect me to be a woman, they don't expect me to have natural hair and so sometimes I’m kind of like yeah, this is it, I'm here and I am the MP y’know. Take it in and get used to it.

Halima: Hell yeah! Love it!

Dawn B: I’ve not stopped all day, so I’ve not even had anything to eat. I’ve just put something on the fire.

Halima: Omg same, I just submitted my dissertation proposal, so quickly just ate before this!

Dawn B: Ahh cool, what’s your dissertation on?

Halima: My title is: “The revolution will not be televised, the celebrification of activism”, so I'm looking at activism from the 60s and 70s and comparing it to activism today because I feel like a lot of the activist nowadays are celebrities, whereas back in the 60s and 70s, a lot of activists where put in prison. So, I'm looking at why that's changed and whether the ways activism has changed is actually helping social activism and stuff like that.

Dawn B: That actually sounds interesting.

Halima: Thank you! I literally watched a movie and I thought of it instantly and I was like, let me just do that.

Dawn B: Ahh, what was the movie?

Halima: The Trial of the Chicago 7 on Netflix, it’s a good ‘un.

Makella: A good shout out to Gill Scott Heron as well!

Halima: Forreal!

Halima: Okay so for question two- what gives you strength? You’ve unapologetically called out Boris Johnson for being a racist, you called out the MET police department and are extremely vocal about the racist abuse you’ve faced during your 15-year career within Labour - where do you find the strength to keep on, keepin’ on and rest your soul?

Dawn B: So I'm not strong every day and I think it's important to say that because people kind of expect you to be strong and as a Black woman, sometimes, this ‘strong identity’ they give us is also the reason why they attack us so much. They believe we can handle it… they say well, ‘let's not appreciate anything she’s doing because she doesn’t need it. Let’s attack her more because she can handle it’. So, I think we have to be mindful of that. I get my strength from knowing that I’m doing a good job. I get my strength from success when I do something well and I win something. And I also get strength and solace, in a way, from knowing that what I’m doing is making a difference. I work at such a pace that I don't often get time to look back and say … “right, okay, we did that well” because then I'm onto the next thing. But when somebody else comes back and says, “I appreciate this”, or “I saw this” or “this made a difference” … it’s … yeah, … I talk about when your battery is running low and you need to recharge…. Those are the things that recharge me.

Makella: I know this has been a bit of a topsy-turvy interview but before I start, I want to do a lil wellbeing check-in, so, how are you really doing, how are you today?

Dawn B: [Laughs] I’m good thanks, it's been a hectic day, but it's been a good day.

Makella: I’m so happy to hear. Okay, so, my question is a bit of a lengthy question, but I’ll try and make it work

In the wake of the Black Lives Matter movement, we've seen an influx of book recommendations centring on how to be anti-racist-

Dawn B: [laughs]

Makella: - and there's definitely a very tangible trend of Black people being asked what books to read, so as a way to counter those questions, I just wanted to ask you something different; 1) growing up, what was your favourite book and 2) what was the last book you read?

Dawn B: So growing up, my favourite book was Alice in Wonderland. It was a big thick hardback book and I remember being just so proud of myself that I’d read the whole lot. I can’t remember what age I was, but I remember being like “yeah, I did that” and so that was just a big sense of achievement for me.

I remember I was also going to try and memorise the Bible and I’d set myself a goal to do this as well

Halima and Makella: Oh my God I did the same thing

Dawn B: Did you!?

Makella and Halima: [Both laughing] Yes

Dawn B: I remember reading it and I got to the bit where women got punished and I was like... I don’t understand this. And then I was in Bible study class and then I was making this big fuss about you know why, because it doesn't make sense, and then I got thrown out of Bible study class and after, I stopped my attempts to memorise the Bible.

[Collective laughs]

Dawn B: The latest book that I've finished is Natives by Akala. I think a really powerful book on race is Biased by Jennifer Egbahart. It’s a very powerful book. She’s been studying the Science of Race for like, the last 30 odd years and she also does work with police forces globally, it's fascinating work. I should do more reading of books, but I don't get a chance because I read so much into everything else that I do. I've now discovered audiobooks though, and I think that’s quite cool, I mean, who knew it!

Makella: Amazing

Halima: Around the time I was learning how to memorise the Bible, I also used to do this thing where, when I was naughty I’d write it in my Bible. It was kind of like a confessional. I’d be like “please God forgive me for taking a sweet when I shouldn't have,” but I’d put it in my Bible and be like, “I am done, I am healed!”

Makella: I am born again!

Halima: Exactly!

Dawn B: Okay, well I didn’t do that! [laughs] How much do you remember from when you were memorising the Bible?

Halima: Oh, absolutely nothing now.

Makella: I remember like the first 5 words- In the beginning, God created,

Dawn B: *continues the rest*

Makella: RIP to my memory, but hey.

Dawn B: Okay [laughs] ask me the next one.

Halima: Do you think, over the past few months we’ve really, truly and honestly confronted racism in this country?

Dawn B: Okay, so I suppose there’s a nuance to this because I think, for some people, it has been very confronting. All of a sudden, some people have been like “so wow, okay, racism actually exists” and as a Black person, you’ll be like… “I've been telling you this'', but y’know, all of a sudden, it's finally sunk in. I think that's because people have had the bandwidth to take more in because other things have quieted down due to the pandemic, so it’s definitely been quite confronting.

For some people, that's been a good thing, for other people they've responded aggressively. We still have a long way to go, so that we can tackle the structural and systemic racism that exists so that the next generation doesn't have to fight it. It's not about the immediate battle or what in front of us because we've been doing that. I've done that for years, and I thought we would have been in a post-racial era by now but we're not. It just shows you how important it is to focus on the systemic structures in order to really get the change that we seek.

Makella: Yeah I definitely agree. It's a shame that despite how many figures and how many activists have given so much of their life and their time to the cause, we’re still having to fight this fight. I definitely feel like there has been some progression, but not as much as-

Halima: - we deserve!

Collective: Yeah

Dawn B: It's because it's structural, we need to challenge the actual structure. The conversation that we're currently having around privilege, I think, is important because so many people never spoke about it in those terms before, and again, some people find it very confronting. For some, there’s an idea that “my white skin doesn't give me any privilege” … and well, it does, whether you want it to or not. Just like the fact that I am a hearing person, I'm not a deaf person and so that gives me privileges because the world is designed for people with hearing and not primarily for people who are deaf, so I've got privileges with that. It's less a case of pointing the finger and more a case of saying, ‘are you aware of this? You need to be aware of it', and you need to be constantly aware of it’ and then we can all get to a better place together.

Makella: Do you think it's easier having those conversations now or before? I feel like now, because of things like social media, it’s easier for the things you say to get misconstrued, what are your thoughts?

Dawn B: I think the conversations are more constant now, I don't know if it's easier. I think it can be very frustrating, I mean, for example, Kemi Badenoch, the Minister for Equality; she's doing such damage to the progress of equality by saying things like “the curriculum isn't colonised” and saying things like “you’re using your skin colour as a sign of victimhood”. I’ve never used my skin colour as a sign of victimhood. I think statements like that can be really damaging because that’s not the reality of the situation. At all. She’s in the system and she’s got the power to change things and she's choosing not to.

Halima: I think Galdem recently wrote something about the rise of Tory MPs of colour, and how the way that they're speaking about race can be really damaging for people like us.

Dawn B: It is very damaging. By all means, she has a right to say what she likes and think what she likes. She really has. And I'm not saying that just because she's Black, she has to think a certain way, I'm just saying that the damage that she is personally doing in her equality briefs is making it really hard to progress things through governmental channels.

Halima: There’s a James Baldwin quote that’s like “We can disagree and still love each other. As long as your disagreement isn’t -

Makella: -rooted in my oppression! -

Halima: -and denial of my humanity and right to exist!

Dawn B: Exactly! I just believe that if we're going to really tackle the system, it's frustrating when there are people who look like you, but don’t think like you, who are at the table, saying things that only serve to stagnate the progression of equality and better education.

Makella: I suppose it’s also frustrating because there are also certain groups of people, I won't say who, but they'll see one Black person as the voice of all Black people and if that one Black person is saying something like that (Kemi Badenoch’s argument that the curriculum is not colonised), that’s just going to be their general view of how that majority of Black people are feeling because a lot of people don't really engage in critical thinking.

Dawn B: Yeah, and that is key. Critical thinking is key and I think actually, that's what we are lacking so much. Now, everything's instantaneous which means you can just Google stuff and your critical thought process is hindered because we don’t have the pressure to work things out and think things through. Critical thinking, I think, is key to how we get to the root of everything.

Makella: Yeah, [laughs] we’ve kind of digressed from our main set of questions now, but that’s exactly it!

Halima: Yeah, I’ll ask the next question.

Recently in the summer, I left the Labour Party and I know some of my friends did also. So I wanted to ask, how do you think Labour can re-engage members of the Black community, especially young people, after feeling so let down by the Labour party recently?

Dawn B: So… why did you leave?

Halima: It was a lot of things; partly because of the leaks regarding Diane Abbot, partly because of some of the things that Keir Starmer was saying as well. I think I was in a very emotional state at that moment. I just didn't feel like Labour's commitment to Black people or their commitment to anti-racism was really there, so I decided to leave.

Dawn B: I'm sorry you've left, although I think I can understand why. I think the Labour Party has a past and has some ground to cover in ensuring that we really are an anti-racist party and those are our undisputed credentials. We've got a way to go. Recently, we had a bit of a rocky patch and I do feel like we have to do a lot of reflecting.

Makella: I think it’s so strange how this shift, within our generation, has happened within such a short period of time. At the beginning of the year, there were so many young people, like myself, who were beginning to get passionate about politics again and passionate about the Labour Party, partly because of people like you and Jeremy Corbyn. It seems, just like that [*clicks fingers*] we've collectively reached a stage of political disillusionment. The Labour Party doesn't even feel like the Labour Party anymore, it just feels like something completely different.

Halima: I remember last year, with the election, I’ve never cried like that in my life. On results night, my Mum called me and I just could not stop sobbing and she was like ‘calm down you're going to get a headache’. The next day I was walking to Tesco and still crying. But then after that, it’s just like you said Makella, it’s interesting to see the difference in the way I felt then and the way I feel now, it’s kind of wild to me.

Dawn B: Yeah, I mean, it's sad that we've lost that passion. This thing of trying to appease people can be hard and it’s important to be measured. I do think that the point is being missed that in a crisis, everybody is a radical socialist. I don't even like the terminology to be honest because for me it's just common sense that we should be treating people nicely and we should be unashamedly pro-equality. This shouldn't be something that's disputed. We should be proud of that. I'd rather lose an election [laughs] Well no, I mean I'd rather win an election don't get me wrong, I don't like losing-

Makella and Halima: [laughs]

Dawn B: -but, we're not going to win If we’re “a little bit Tory” you know. Nobody's going to vote for us if we’re “a little bit Tory”; you might win some votes on one end, but you will lose votes at the other. So it's like, I’d rather win firmly on our principles, our base and our core to who we are as a Labour Party and I think that's important.

Halima: I asked a lot of my Black friends and that was the main question they had to ask you as well

Dawn B: Yeah, I mean we are still an anti-racist party, but you know, I'm not going to pretend that everything is rosy and good and we're in a really good place because currently, we're not. And y’know, I'm shocked about the leaked report… well I'm not that shocked, but, I'm shocked it was in writing. So, you know, I'm still recovering from that myself. Things have changed a lot, but that's life. It will get better.

Makella: Okay so the next question was from my 12-year-old brother Zachary, who has always been a bit of a ‘Big Asker’ and his question is, “how can young people still have faith in the government when it takes other people like Marcus Rashford to step in before politicians remember children’s’ human rights?”

Dawn B: Shocking isn’t it? And I suppose it kind of takes us back to this activism question; if we continued along the path that we were continuing as a Labour Party, Marcus Rashford wouldn’t have had to do so much of the heavy lifting, because we would have been pushing for it and it wouldn’t have been on Marcus alone.

On the other side of it all, it just shows that this government really doesn't care, and the only time they’re going to care is if there's pressure for them to do so. Nowadays, that pressure is like an accumulative pressure, so the more people that sign a petition, or talk about it, or write to their MPs, the more likely the government will actually do something about it and unfortunately that is the period of time that we're in; where social media and accumulative pressure plays a big part in how people act and react. If the Labour Party was in power, we wouldn't even have this issue, because we would have campaigned for it anyway, but yes, I'm grateful for Marcus Rashford and I'm grateful for everybody that wants to campaign to look after those people that need it the most. Ultimately, we should all work together, and politicians should be a part of that, but unfortunately, we've got a government that has an 80-seat majority so all we can do is keep trying to identify how we can get them to do the right thing.

Makella: I mean, do you really think that it wouldn’t have been an issue if Labour was in power? Because I know that even Vicky Ford, the current Children's Minister, even she voted against children having Free School Meals

Dawn B: Yes, they had very uncaring reasoning but no, it wouldn’t have been an issue if Labour were in power

Makella: Even under Keir Starmer?

Dawn B : Yeah, even under Starmer. He may not have displayed himself in the best light at the moment, but he isn’t that bad.

Makella: …Hmm, okay, I'll take your word for it… but it’s all I've got right now.

Dawn B: [laughs]

Halima: One of my questions is from my friend Yazz and she asked, “what advice would you give young socialists/ leftists/ labour supporters who are worried about burn out?”

Dawn B: So, one of the best bits of advice I was given when I was younger was: choose your battles. Know who you are. Know yourself. Be grounded. Be centred; make sure you've got a page or person that helps you to centre yourself. Be proud of who you are. Be present in where you are. Do good things and things that make you feel good. Know that you're powerful. Know that you're worthy and worth the very best. Don't dim your light for anybody; That is something that you need to get used to, you need to get used to your own self-empowerment. Don't be with anyone who makes you feel small; they're making you feel small so they can feel big. Don’t do it. And don't compromise too much, there will be plenty of time to compromise when you're older, so it's fine to be a little bit uncompromising when you're younger, and then later make changes.

Makella: Oh wow, a word!

Dawn B: And so, my favourite song is ‘Something Inside so Strong’ by Labi Siffre;

“The higher they build their barriers, the taller we become. The further they take our rights away, the faster we will run. They can deny us, they can choose to turn their face away, no matter, cause there's something inside so strong”

Makella: Mmmm

Dawn B: “The more they refuse to hear our voice, the louder we will sing”

Makella: AMEN!

Dawn B: “A wonder wealth as mine, try to deny my place in time, our light will shine so brightly, it will blind”

Halima: We’re in church!

Dawn B: “When they say we’re just not good enough, look them in the eye and say, we’re gonna do it anyway. We’re gonna do it anyway. “

That, would be my advice.

Halima and Makella: Amazing

[collective laughs]

Makella: So….. when are you writing your book, because I, urm, I need to read this [laughs]

Dawn B: I know, I should write a book at some point!

Makella: You should! We’ll be your biggest supporters!!

Dawn B: At some point, I’ll definitely do one. I need a ghostwriter [laughs]. We’ll make it happen!

Halima: Ahh okay so we have 5 minutes left, Makella d’you wanna ask your final question?

Makella: Yeah let’s go, one of my questions was “what’s one piece of advice you’ve been given and like to remember when things seem/feel bleak?” But you’ve amazingly answered that already, so to wrap this, my final question;

The contributions you have made towards making women, especially Black women, feel seen and heard in politics is incredible

Halima: Forreals

Makella: And has been quite literally history in the making (looking forward to teaching my children about you)

Dawn B: [laughs]

Makella: So, my question was … what would you be doing if you weren’t in politics?

Dawn B: Well, I’ve had jobs before this; I’ve been a computer programmer and a trade union official. I like learning and development, I like presenting, I'd kind of like to have my own show, like an Oprah Winfrey type show where you get inspirational people and then, y’know, you give the whole audience a car

Makella: You get a car! [Gesturing with Oprah’s mannerisms]

Dawn B: That kind of thing! I don't want to die in politics. I don't want them to wheel me out, I don't wanna do that, I want to be able to journey into the next thing that I do.

Makella: That’s lovely!

Dawn B: And it's you know, it's always surprised me that I've made an impact. It's a nice surprise and sometimes, you forget. You forget how important it is, because like I said earlier, sometimes it does just feel like going from one thing to the other, so thank you, guys.

Halima: It's been nice to speak to you!

Makella: Truly, so amazing!

Halima: I loved everything about this and how honest you were. I used to be really afraid to just be honest when it comes to talking about race. Growing up in Ireland, and then living in Hertfordshire, I was always the only one and it was quite isolating. People would think I was being difficult and seeing people like you really means a lot and gave me the strength to not be afraid to say things

Dawn B: Good, it makes me happy. Lately, I've also discovered this very powerful reclamation in instances as you’ve mentioned, when somebody says something to you, i.e. “being difficult” for speaking up, you can just tell them that’s an anti-black trope and I found this really powerful. I try to say to people; just because you've done a racist thing, doesn't necessarily mean that you have to be a racist for the rest of your life. You can change. We are all governed by biases. We just need to strive to know them and strive to be better people.

Halima: I'm going to be using that saying

Makella: Oh, same!

Halima and Makella: Thank you so much for your time

Dawn B: A pleasure, take care guys!

Written by Makella Ama

IG: @ma.kevelli

Edited by Halima Jibril (she/they)

IG: @h.alimaa

Illustration by: Jo. E (they/them)

IG: @poltaro

Thank you to our friends and family - Ollie, Yazz, Zachary, Kenny & Ekua for your questions!